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I thought to myself why not make a thread about gyno and ways to prevent it, because i felt its one of a few subjects that is touched on, but not fully explained for most out there. As well as inform these new guys about prevention opposed to waiting till there is a problem.
I'm posting this in Q&A because no one goes into the PCT section, especially new guys. So i thought it'd be best seen here.
Now it seems to me, most newbies do little to no research before coming in here, asking dumb questions that can easily be found with limited effort. Granted, i was once one of those newbies, and i even admit, i have changed my opinion on certain topics more than once. But its because of listening and learning from more experienced guys than myself, finding new medical articles on said topics, and the good ol' trial and error system. So don't post here saying 'Oh yeah! This isn't what you said on x/x/08! Or you said something different on time.' This is why i will periodically be updating this thread with new info.
Now here we go!
So i put this together to include my opinions on how to avoid estrogen related side effects (namely gyno for this particular thread) among other things, namely how Tamox does in fact cure gyno, but well get to that later.
Now there are a few schools of thought on this subject;
The first one being that once you get gyno, begin the reversal ASAP. I feel the issues with doing so on cycle are as follows.
Letro is the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit as much as 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg. Running a gyno reversal during the cycle will cause a few problems because of this. Now as i'm sure you know, estrogen is needed as much as testosterone is when it comes to muscle building. Running the reversal during the cycle will cause you to maintain a low level of estrogen throughout the cycle (This causes serious gain losses IMO).
The reason for this is because of the estrogen rebound effect that comes with taking Letro. The body will try to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance, and the issue is your estrogen has been completely inhibited(due to the letro) and thus causing a rebound, sending your estrogen levels to go though the roof. Now because this happens, you will need to prevent this by supplementing further with another AI or SERM.
This means that you need to begin taking Nolva throughout the rest of your cycle until PCT, and with the help of the other PCT drugs(Aromasin , Clomid etc..), it should handle the estrogen rebound effect. (Using Nolva on the last day of your letro will eliminate estrogen's ability to bind to the receptors in the breast thus preventing the onset of estrogen related side effects, or in this particular case, cause the levels to stay lowered.)
Now Mammon put it this way, and it makes perfect sense in what I'm saying.
With starting letro during cycle when symptoms start, i don't know.. sure it will eliminate 98% of estrogen.. stopping the conversion of test to estrogen.. but what about the circulating estrogen that is already present and causing the problem.. does letro have the ability to eliminate already present estrogen.. I'm not sure..
Now the another school of thought;
Waiting till the cycle is over.
Now the only real issues Ive found with waiting to begin a Gyno Reversal is that Letro kills your sex drive, and when used on cycle, since we are using high levels of Testosterone , it should cancel it out. Well i don't know if i really agree, but Ive found nothing in terms of medical articles that either support, or oppose that idea. (Would love to read if you have found some!)
The other problem people seem to have is that if you are running a Gyno Reversal while not on cycle, you have to taper with Nolva for two weeks. Again, not an issue in my opinion considering if you get gyno say week 5 on a 12 week cycle, you'd be using Nolva for another 6 weeks, PLUS PCT. (Just an example)
So, now onto my way! It is as follows.
Prevent gyno before it happens!
Prevention is always best guys! Not preventing these problems would be like not wearing a condom, and then getting AIDS, and treating it! Its always best to prevent problems before they occur!
1) The most obvious way is to control your BF% before and during your cycle. Let me try to make this as clear as possible. The higher your BF% is, the higher risk of developing ERSEs are. The lower the BF%, the lower the risk. Keep in mind these are NOT the only factors, but they are some of the biggest. This of course doesn't mean that you wont get estrogen or progesterone (topic for another day) related side effects, but it does in fact reduce the likelihood. It should also be taken up under advisement to watch your diet and water retention. That bloat and poor diet only adds to problems.
2) Use an AI if you know you're gyno prone. Now Adex on cycle is the same basic concept as using Letro, the difference being that it doesn't inhibit as much estrogen as Letro. The problem here is finding out the hard way if you're Estrogen Related Side Effect Prone (i say estrogen related side effect, because there are more side effects than just gyno such as, lethargy, suppressed gains, suppressed sex drive, acne, bloating etc..). The only way i know how to see if youre ERSEP is the old fashioned way, run a cycle. No sides, no worries! Obviously if you don't follow the first set of rules (above) you'd be best advised to use an AI just in case.
3) If you do get ERSE's, then begin administering Nolvadex immediately! Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively will block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast, now the circulating estrogen can still be elevated, it just wont have the ability to bind to the receptors in the breast and cause breast growth, i.e. gyno! This making Nolvadex effective in blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. Or in the case of gyno beginning or already occurring, it will stop the symptoms from worsening.
And now onto the big part. Tamox does in fact cure gyno. Yes, shocking to some, to others, not so much. I have long suspected (thanks to the guide from Mammon) that it was possible. Originally i didn't include this in the thread because to be honest i rushed this out. But now time for the big reveal.
Taken from C Bino's thread "All you need to know about gyno"
This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.
I strongly disagree in the red highlighted areas. He is just plain wrong to put it frankly. Not to mention the terms of stopping symptoms from progressing! Now nothing against C Bino, cause i know people who have used his Gyno Reversal method, and they have said it does work. That being said, i have also heard of its many failures from firsthand users.
I have been waiting for more than just first hand experience to present this case, because lets face it, C Bino and his method are well respected. So now due to discussions with Mammon and Medical articles from my boy Peachfuzz, were ready to present the cases.
Here are five different case studies that provide us with the info that Tamox does, and more importantly CAN cure gyno.
Ill post up the first one for everyone to see.
"Management of physiological gynecomastia with tamoxifen
References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.
H. N. Khan, , R. Rampaul and R. W. Blamey
Professorial Unit of Surgery, Department of Surgery, Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK
Abstract
Aims: We aimed to confirm suggestions that tamoxifen therapy alone may resolve physiological gynaecomastia.
Methods: A prospective audit of the outcome of tamoxifen routinely given to men with physiological gynaecomastia was carried out at Nottingham. Men referred with gynaecomastia had clinical signs recorded, e.g., type (diffuse ‘fatty’ or retro-areolar ‘lump’), size and possible aetiology. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20 mg once daily for 6–12 weeks. On follow-up patients were assessed for complete resolution (CR), partial resolution where patient is satisfied with outcome (PR) or no resolution (NR). Success was either CR or PR.
Results: Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. Median age was 31 (range 18–64). Tenderness was present in 25 (71%) cases. Sixteen men (45%) had ‘fatty’ gynaecomastia and 20 had ‘lump’ gynaecomastia. Tamoxifen resolved the mass in 30 patients (83.3%; CR=22, PR=8) and tenderness in 21 cases (84%; CR=21, PR=0). Lump gynaecomastia was more responsive to tamoxifen than the fatty type (100% vs. 62.5%; P=0.0041).
Conclusions: Oral tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia, especially for the lump type"
*This is just the abstract, for the full article click on the link.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...67cb56f35979ec
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3664552
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3123765
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abst...No=20043004430
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7bea0fc991c05b
Now to make it clear. Can Tamox cure gyno? It seems it can. Does that mean its a fool proof method that will work for anyone? No of course not. To put it frankly, im very skeptical about the Gyno Reversal method as a whole. Weather it be with Tamox or Letro. The point is, its not a proven method. In reference to the Letro Reversal, it was put together by someone who had first hand experience, and until some medical researchers put it to the test, we cannot definitively say it does or does not work.
As for the Tamox reversal, ive found countless articles stating its success. It should be noted however that it doesnt mean that the gyno cannot reoccur. As a matter of fact ive found that it likely will return if the proper precautions of prevention arent taken before you cycle again. And even if you dont cycle, it still can return. Here is a source for this below.
"Am Surg 2000 Jan;66(1):38-40
Comparison of Tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia.
Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF.
Department of Surgery, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam.
Idiopathic gynecomastia, unilateral or bilateral, is a common physical finding in normal men. Successful treatment using Tamoxifen (antiestrogen) and danazol (antiandrogen) has recently been reported. We compared the efficacy of Tamoxifen and danazol in the treatment of idiopathic gynecomastia. We reviewed the clinical records of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia presenting to the Department of Surgery, University of Hong Kong, between August 1990 and September 1995. Medical treatment with either Tamoxifen (20 mg/d) or danazol (400 mg/d) was offered and continued until a static response was achieved. The treatment response was compared. Sixty-eight patients with idiopathic gynecomastia were seen in the Breast Clinic. The median age was 39.5 years (range, 13-82), with a median duration of symptoms of 3 months (range, 1-90). The median size was 3 cm (range, 1-7). Twenty-three patients were treated with Tamoxifen and 20 with danazol.Complete resolution of the gynecomastia was recorded in 18 patients (78.2%) treated with Tamoxifen, whereas only 8 patients (40%) in the danazol group had complete resolution. Five patients, all from the Tamoxifen group, developed recurrence of breast mass. In conclusion, hormonal manition is effective in the treatment of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia. Although the effect is more marked for Tamoxifen compared with danazol, the relapse rate is higher for Tamoxifen. Further prospective randomized studies would be useful in defining the role of these drugs in the management of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia."
Basically what it says is that i can be reversed with Tamoxifen. But it does have a high % chance to reoccur. Supporting my claim that it will certainly shrink and possibly remove gyno, but its not 100% accurate method. The only way to have that is surgery. But thats not to say if you catch it while its forming you have a chance at reversing, once its formed the best you can hope for is some shrinkage, you aren't going to make it disappear. It will always be there even if you cant feel it, it will come back on your next cycles if you don't take proper precautions. Which is my main point in writing this thread.
All that put aside for a moment, i included the different schools of thought in a way that would help those who would like to attempt the method. I see no problem with trying it, as it seems it has worked for some in the past. I just wanted to make the point of taking preventitive measures before the problems occur. As well as other things such as Tamox indeed being somewhat effective when it comes to treating gyno. More so than the Letro method in my opinion. As far as who's way of doing things is better, thats up to everyones personal opinions. I just happen to think that my way is the best way. It works for me, and the people who follow it. Im sure some will disagree with my way of thinking, but for the most part, ive found people to be open and have positive things to say about my advice.
Now heres my recomendations for doses.
"FOR ON CYCLE ESTROGEN CONTROL"
Adex - .5mgs EOD (For first time users.)
If sides do not decrease much, you may increase the dose to .25mgs ED, or as high as .5mgs ED. I would not exceed 1mgs ED use under any circumstances, at that point, the use of Letro should be looked at.
"FOR GYNO REDUCTION"
Tamox - 40mgs ED (for the first 5 days.)
From there you can drop the dose to 20mgs ED, and if symptoms subside, continue use of 10mgs throughout the remainder of your cycle and into PCT.
I'm posting this in Q&A because no one goes into the PCT section, especially new guys. So i thought it'd be best seen here.
Now it seems to me, most newbies do little to no research before coming in here, asking dumb questions that can easily be found with limited effort. Granted, i was once one of those newbies, and i even admit, i have changed my opinion on certain topics more than once. But its because of listening and learning from more experienced guys than myself, finding new medical articles on said topics, and the good ol' trial and error system. So don't post here saying 'Oh yeah! This isn't what you said on x/x/08! Or you said something different on time.' This is why i will periodically be updating this thread with new info.
Now here we go!
So i put this together to include my opinions on how to avoid estrogen related side effects (namely gyno for this particular thread) among other things, namely how Tamox does in fact cure gyno, but well get to that later.
Now there are a few schools of thought on this subject;
The first one being that once you get gyno, begin the reversal ASAP. I feel the issues with doing so on cycle are as follows.
Letro is the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit as much as 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg. Running a gyno reversal during the cycle will cause a few problems because of this. Now as i'm sure you know, estrogen is needed as much as testosterone is when it comes to muscle building. Running the reversal during the cycle will cause you to maintain a low level of estrogen throughout the cycle (This causes serious gain losses IMO).
The reason for this is because of the estrogen rebound effect that comes with taking Letro. The body will try to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance, and the issue is your estrogen has been completely inhibited(due to the letro) and thus causing a rebound, sending your estrogen levels to go though the roof. Now because this happens, you will need to prevent this by supplementing further with another AI or SERM.
This means that you need to begin taking Nolva throughout the rest of your cycle until PCT, and with the help of the other PCT drugs(Aromasin , Clomid etc..), it should handle the estrogen rebound effect. (Using Nolva on the last day of your letro will eliminate estrogen's ability to bind to the receptors in the breast thus preventing the onset of estrogen related side effects, or in this particular case, cause the levels to stay lowered.)
Now Mammon put it this way, and it makes perfect sense in what I'm saying.
With starting letro during cycle when symptoms start, i don't know.. sure it will eliminate 98% of estrogen.. stopping the conversion of test to estrogen.. but what about the circulating estrogen that is already present and causing the problem.. does letro have the ability to eliminate already present estrogen.. I'm not sure..
Now the another school of thought;
Waiting till the cycle is over.
Now the only real issues Ive found with waiting to begin a Gyno Reversal is that Letro kills your sex drive, and when used on cycle, since we are using high levels of Testosterone , it should cancel it out. Well i don't know if i really agree, but Ive found nothing in terms of medical articles that either support, or oppose that idea. (Would love to read if you have found some!)
The other problem people seem to have is that if you are running a Gyno Reversal while not on cycle, you have to taper with Nolva for two weeks. Again, not an issue in my opinion considering if you get gyno say week 5 on a 12 week cycle, you'd be using Nolva for another 6 weeks, PLUS PCT. (Just an example)
So, now onto my way! It is as follows.
Prevent gyno before it happens!
Prevention is always best guys! Not preventing these problems would be like not wearing a condom, and then getting AIDS, and treating it! Its always best to prevent problems before they occur!
1) The most obvious way is to control your BF% before and during your cycle. Let me try to make this as clear as possible. The higher your BF% is, the higher risk of developing ERSEs are. The lower the BF%, the lower the risk. Keep in mind these are NOT the only factors, but they are some of the biggest. This of course doesn't mean that you wont get estrogen or progesterone (topic for another day) related side effects, but it does in fact reduce the likelihood. It should also be taken up under advisement to watch your diet and water retention. That bloat and poor diet only adds to problems.
2) Use an AI if you know you're gyno prone. Now Adex on cycle is the same basic concept as using Letro, the difference being that it doesn't inhibit as much estrogen as Letro. The problem here is finding out the hard way if you're Estrogen Related Side Effect Prone (i say estrogen related side effect, because there are more side effects than just gyno such as, lethargy, suppressed gains, suppressed sex drive, acne, bloating etc..). The only way i know how to see if youre ERSEP is the old fashioned way, run a cycle. No sides, no worries! Obviously if you don't follow the first set of rules (above) you'd be best advised to use an AI just in case.
3) If you do get ERSE's, then begin administering Nolvadex immediately! Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively will block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast, now the circulating estrogen can still be elevated, it just wont have the ability to bind to the receptors in the breast and cause breast growth, i.e. gyno! This making Nolvadex effective in blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. Or in the case of gyno beginning or already occurring, it will stop the symptoms from worsening.
And now onto the big part. Tamox does in fact cure gyno. Yes, shocking to some, to others, not so much. I have long suspected (thanks to the guide from Mammon) that it was possible. Originally i didn't include this in the thread because to be honest i rushed this out. But now time for the big reveal.
Taken from C Bino's thread "All you need to know about gyno"
This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.
I strongly disagree in the red highlighted areas. He is just plain wrong to put it frankly. Not to mention the terms of stopping symptoms from progressing! Now nothing against C Bino, cause i know people who have used his Gyno Reversal method, and they have said it does work. That being said, i have also heard of its many failures from firsthand users.
I have been waiting for more than just first hand experience to present this case, because lets face it, C Bino and his method are well respected. So now due to discussions with Mammon and Medical articles from my boy Peachfuzz, were ready to present the cases.
Here are five different case studies that provide us with the info that Tamox does, and more importantly CAN cure gyno.
Ill post up the first one for everyone to see.
"Management of physiological gynecomastia with tamoxifen
References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.
H. N. Khan, , R. Rampaul and R. W. Blamey
Professorial Unit of Surgery, Department of Surgery, Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK
Abstract
Aims: We aimed to confirm suggestions that tamoxifen therapy alone may resolve physiological gynaecomastia.
Methods: A prospective audit of the outcome of tamoxifen routinely given to men with physiological gynaecomastia was carried out at Nottingham. Men referred with gynaecomastia had clinical signs recorded, e.g., type (diffuse ‘fatty’ or retro-areolar ‘lump’), size and possible aetiology. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20 mg once daily for 6–12 weeks. On follow-up patients were assessed for complete resolution (CR), partial resolution where patient is satisfied with outcome (PR) or no resolution (NR). Success was either CR or PR.
Results: Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. Median age was 31 (range 18–64). Tenderness was present in 25 (71%) cases. Sixteen men (45%) had ‘fatty’ gynaecomastia and 20 had ‘lump’ gynaecomastia. Tamoxifen resolved the mass in 30 patients (83.3%; CR=22, PR=8) and tenderness in 21 cases (84%; CR=21, PR=0). Lump gynaecomastia was more responsive to tamoxifen than the fatty type (100% vs. 62.5%; P=0.0041).
Conclusions: Oral tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia, especially for the lump type"
*This is just the abstract, for the full article click on the link.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...67cb56f35979ec
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3664552
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3123765
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abst...No=20043004430
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7bea0fc991c05b
Now to make it clear. Can Tamox cure gyno? It seems it can. Does that mean its a fool proof method that will work for anyone? No of course not. To put it frankly, im very skeptical about the Gyno Reversal method as a whole. Weather it be with Tamox or Letro. The point is, its not a proven method. In reference to the Letro Reversal, it was put together by someone who had first hand experience, and until some medical researchers put it to the test, we cannot definitively say it does or does not work.
As for the Tamox reversal, ive found countless articles stating its success. It should be noted however that it doesnt mean that the gyno cannot reoccur. As a matter of fact ive found that it likely will return if the proper precautions of prevention arent taken before you cycle again. And even if you dont cycle, it still can return. Here is a source for this below.
"Am Surg 2000 Jan;66(1):38-40
Comparison of Tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia.
Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF.
Department of Surgery, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam.
Idiopathic gynecomastia, unilateral or bilateral, is a common physical finding in normal men. Successful treatment using Tamoxifen (antiestrogen) and danazol (antiandrogen) has recently been reported. We compared the efficacy of Tamoxifen and danazol in the treatment of idiopathic gynecomastia. We reviewed the clinical records of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia presenting to the Department of Surgery, University of Hong Kong, between August 1990 and September 1995. Medical treatment with either Tamoxifen (20 mg/d) or danazol (400 mg/d) was offered and continued until a static response was achieved. The treatment response was compared. Sixty-eight patients with idiopathic gynecomastia were seen in the Breast Clinic. The median age was 39.5 years (range, 13-82), with a median duration of symptoms of 3 months (range, 1-90). The median size was 3 cm (range, 1-7). Twenty-three patients were treated with Tamoxifen and 20 with danazol.Complete resolution of the gynecomastia was recorded in 18 patients (78.2%) treated with Tamoxifen, whereas only 8 patients (40%) in the danazol group had complete resolution. Five patients, all from the Tamoxifen group, developed recurrence of breast mass. In conclusion, hormonal manition is effective in the treatment of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia. Although the effect is more marked for Tamoxifen compared with danazol, the relapse rate is higher for Tamoxifen. Further prospective randomized studies would be useful in defining the role of these drugs in the management of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia."
Basically what it says is that i can be reversed with Tamoxifen. But it does have a high % chance to reoccur. Supporting my claim that it will certainly shrink and possibly remove gyno, but its not 100% accurate method. The only way to have that is surgery. But thats not to say if you catch it while its forming you have a chance at reversing, once its formed the best you can hope for is some shrinkage, you aren't going to make it disappear. It will always be there even if you cant feel it, it will come back on your next cycles if you don't take proper precautions. Which is my main point in writing this thread.
All that put aside for a moment, i included the different schools of thought in a way that would help those who would like to attempt the method. I see no problem with trying it, as it seems it has worked for some in the past. I just wanted to make the point of taking preventitive measures before the problems occur. As well as other things such as Tamox indeed being somewhat effective when it comes to treating gyno. More so than the Letro method in my opinion. As far as who's way of doing things is better, thats up to everyones personal opinions. I just happen to think that my way is the best way. It works for me, and the people who follow it. Im sure some will disagree with my way of thinking, but for the most part, ive found people to be open and have positive things to say about my advice.
Now heres my recomendations for doses.
"FOR ON CYCLE ESTROGEN CONTROL"
Adex - .5mgs EOD (For first time users.)
If sides do not decrease much, you may increase the dose to .25mgs ED, or as high as .5mgs ED. I would not exceed 1mgs ED use under any circumstances, at that point, the use of Letro should be looked at.
"FOR GYNO REDUCTION"
Tamox - 40mgs ED (for the first 5 days.)
From there you can drop the dose to 20mgs ED, and if symptoms subside, continue use of 10mgs throughout the remainder of your cycle and into PCT.